Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Lately... Flandry, Quim, Randy and myself started to talk about what to do with the current Brainstorm situation.

How do we handle threads without response for a longer period of time?

Mark and keep? Close and archive?

Were is the right place to discuss app/enhancement requests?

Were do we start bug attention catchers?

Isn't bug-voting and a Community thread to talk about it enough for getting attention and show how much interest exists?

At the bugtracker we have the option to link dependencies. Would it be useful to have this feature at Brainstorm and Talk:Brainstorm?

Example: Brianstorm1 proposes a mulitusersystem. Brainstorm2 needs a multiusersystem to get their solution working and people start to integrate it within their solutions, what may cross the whole Brainstorm1 where also people are working on solutions.
Should we merge these or link them to prevent working on one topic in different directions?!

Please feel free to share your thoughts, ideas and problems!
Do not discuss server problems here, please.

This thread may split into new Brainstorm threads over time, for now I want to start an open discussion.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

We also need to come to a better-defined understanding with the-powers-that-be about a few things in the interest of avoiding duplication of effort and frustration from would-be participants. Many have voiced dissatisfaction with brainstorm as an "opiate of the masses" catch-all graveyard for issues Nokia doesn't want to fix. So:

What criteria separate an item that should be a bug report from a brainstorm?

What is the policy for prioritizing work on bugzilla solutions, brainstorm solutions, and other projects?

...

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

One thing for frustrated users to keep in mind: this is a developing system and process. Abject complaining won't help improve it much, but solid suggestions will-- but even more so, ownership of solutions. That's where the chain is really breaking, and it has a ripple effect: people see little or no action, quit participating upfront, and start complaining all over the place.

I challenge everyone to go through the actual Brainstorms (not just the Talk subforum) and see if you find something that fits your fancy, and you can act upon. Every little bit helps!

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I think brainstorming has improved massively since the talk threads started coming. I think it's up to the people with the brainstorms to keep the discussion going and get votes.

But brainstorms that seem to be going nowhere could be archived imo. Would be nice with a message to the originator first, and see if he or she want's to try to activate the problem somehow.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Hmm I'd like some good process for when a feature is deemed accepted or so.

Currently a feature that has 200 votes for it would be above one with only 15 but how do you classify which one would be good to go and wich one not?

Sorry for the odd response... my brain isn't feeling up to cohession.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

One of the problems I have with brainstorm is the different categories: proposal, brainstorm, sandbox, under-development... I get confused as to what is being suggested by ignorant people like me who just have an idea, what is being suggested because it's doable and what is actually being done.

Hence I have never started a thread in there (Who said "Must be the only forum on the board"? :D) The place, while less daunting than bugzilla,is still a protocol I don't 'get'. And last time I tried to add a suggestion to a brainstorm, the brainstorm system itself hiccupped twice and keeled over comatose.

Could we do something with the categories/codes so it is a) obvious what each category means and b) instantly visible. Can vBulletin do colour coded titles? - say purple for suggestions, yellow for things under discussion, green for projects under development, and red for ones which seem to have stalled?

And would it be too big a burden on the Brainstorm mods (now there's more of them) to ask them to contact the proposer after a fixed term - say 3 months after the proposal - to check on whether its progressing or dropped? Then it might be possible to search the brainstorm forum according to the status of projects.

And to take up Texrat's challenge - we need a 'monthly auction' of projects which have got lots of votes and appear to be viable but don't have anyone picking them up - or a weekly featured 'unloved suggestion' like the dogs home do to place unloved dogs. With sentimental pictures and a sob story of how this proposal came to be abandoned by its original owners.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Good point Kathy. Brainstorm requires a triage process that isn't really there. That requires a champion. I'd love to take on that role, but at present it's problematic. Any takers?

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

There were two main motivations in the creation of Brainstorm:

1. Bugzilla seen as a non-friendly tool for non-tech people that otherwise might have great ideas proposing and discussing new features. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

2. Separation between bugs and features seen as useful also for Nokia since the acceptance of bugs comes usually from developers while the acceptance of features comes usually from product managers. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

The Maemo product managers are eager to see a Brainstorm with great ideas, fruitful discussion and plenty of votes, showing the proposals worth prioritizing and considering first. But they suffer the very same problems reported by users since they are users themselves: slow server, difficulty to follow the activities, process not very polished, categories not very clear...

About the categories, I posted an alternative proposal but I got no feedback: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33223

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I think we should prioritize things that are obvious to the user.

I'm a previous symbian owner and it was very annoying every time an update came out, there was a huge update list out of which nothing was visible, absolutely nothing!
Obviously it was quite disappointing...

I suggest once in a while we should have a sticky voting poll as dunno if it's just me but I think most users are lazy to vote/the brainstorm section really moves(/moved) slow.

What do you think?

I'd like to try and help if it's possible :)
Out of my favorite brainstorms I'd only promote the app manager improvement and allowing the browser to start videos in the media player (this is already implemented for divx so that should be quick and improve browsing sites youtube and dalymotion).

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I think you'd be an excellent person for that, Bec. :)

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

So Bec-- wanna add "Brainstorm Champion" to your signature? :D

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

My problem with brainstorm is that I'm a 1|0, black|white person. That's a bad thing for brainstorms in general. ;)

I also have to admit, before I write on, that I prefer bugzilla a lot over brainstorm: Bugzilla is easier to handle. You can search it easily. You can see status, dependency,.. plus, and that's the biggest advantage, you usually get some direct input from the Vatican. At some point you'll know: They'll do it in PR1.2. Or: They don't think it's useful and will never do it. A WONTFIX is a good thing because you'll know what's not gonna happen.

But there's two things in particular I simply don't understand (even though in principle I think I could like the idea... someday):

1) Brainstorm vs. Bugzilla - "no brainers"

There's this rule of "very specific and no-brainer enhancement requests" for bugzilla. Sounds nice. But then there's also bugs like 1889 (camera support for flash plug-in) that from my POV couldn't be any more specific than they are: Somebody switched flash support off for privacy reasons... and the bug is about re-enabling it. It's not the big "How to get camera support for the Flash plug-in"-discussion. It's plain and simple: Re-enable it. You took it away, put it back in. Will you? If not, WONTFIX.
I don't see how such bugs can be reasonably transferred over to brainstorm if there's only one possible solution, nothing to discuss or suggest, only those who say "yes" and those who say "no". - There would be something to discuss if the original bug would clearly be commented upon as WONTFIX. Then a brainstorm would make sense. Like: "Nokia will not let us use the cam on cam4.com. - How can we work around this? Any ideas?" - Do you see the difference?

So for me, brainstorm is a place where people can discuss the "How": Solution #1, solution #2, solution #3, then vote for one of them, discuss on t.m.o. etc.
If there's no reason to discuss a "How" (at least as long as Nokia doesn't comment on how they're gonna handle the problem), if it's as simple as "Please enable feature X in application Y" - what good is brainstorm? Why go to maemo.org and discuss with the community if I want Nokia to change code?

2) Responsibility, process, workflow,... or whatever you call it

Bugs are a beautiful thing. You report them, others vote, you're asked for more input, and eventually they'll tell you that they fixed it - or that they decided not to because Diablo's dead. Whatever. But the point is: When I open a bug report, I talk to somebody and get an answer. I start something that will be worked upon (reliably) and come to an end, even if this end is WONTFIX.

Brainstorm is different. You write there - and then what? Who is responsible? Will somebody look at it and say: Hey, this is a good idea, let's do it? Who? Is this something that should be done by community members? Do Nokians read the brainstorm? If solutions are discussed and solution #1 has 2 votes and solution #2 has 50 votes - is it OK to close the brainstorm as soon as you implemented solution #1? (Because somehow some kind of solution was implemented, just not the one people wanted.)

I don't understand it. I remember I proposed some solutions here or there, but I don't even follow what's going on on those pages because I don't know what to expect.
With bugs it's different. I actively follow many bugs. Because I know that there is a certain lifecycle of a bug and its story will eventually come to an end... either a happy end or not. Bugs are like books or films. Brainstorms, at the moment, are like advertising folders I get from the local supermarket every now and then. They don't have a timeline.... nothing happens... and you're not sure if anything should happen at all.


That's why I'm unsure about brainstorm. Maybe if somebody could help me about my point 2 (responsibility, workflow), I'd get a better idea of how to use it.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Sorry guys, but at current time brainstrom is very difficult to use. I tried it at least twice but Firefox just sleeps forever, waiting answer from web site after I submit a proposal. I am not expert in top level apps and I don't know why is it but techincally it is difficult today.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

You certainly raise valid points and ask the right questions benny.

But it's hard to pigeonhole something like Brainstorm into a 1|0 box. It isn't a black-and-white process-- However, it should LEAD to black and white action, ultimately. That's where we're coming up short.

Some solutions are easy to implement. Speaking from my own experience, Maemo Greeters was one. It was one suggested solution of many related to improving the new member and visitor experience here. It just required someone to start a thread, propose the idea to the community and facilitate the process. No overhead, no special rights required. Easy.

At the other end of the spectrum are the changes the require Nokia engagement and particularly some significant expense. Those *should* be fairly easy to get going assuming Nokia accepts the need and responsibility. There's been a mixed bag of success there but again, identification of the required resource is a large part of the battle and these should be black and white in that respect.

In between are the ones falling through the cracks, where it may not be easy/possible for the typical member to implement but maybe it doesn't fit the bill for Nokia, either. A good example was the request for meetup "swag", where community members are willing to do the graphics work but we lack funding to get products (tee shirts, caps, mugs, whatever) made. Requests like that get stuck in limbo and have resisted all efforts to be pried out...

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I am going to request access to the Brainstorm database, and see if I can create a reporting solution for it...

EDIT: this one may be tougher than I thought. A dialog has been started, but getting the necessary access (for me) may be an issue.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

benny1967,
Big thanks! I´m also having huge issues really understanding what and how brainstorm really benefits this community.

I have read some of brainstorms and voted couple of them but then what? It makes me happy to get "involved", but what really happens? I really need some kind of results to motivate to keep voting, suggesting and collaboration. Right now it feels like its place for people to brainstorm for sake of fun. I need results from extras developers or from Nokia. I want advertisements about different brainstorms running: Most voted, viewed, commented and also lowest etc. Best brainstorms which are taken consideration by Nokia. Brainstorms that have been implemented etc..

So comparison to bugzilla where you instantly see that there is some kind of reaction on side of nokia makes at least me push things harder. I try to make better bug report, i try to find solution, i want to test because of their reaction to my comment. Maybe there should be stars/prioritize numbers from Nokia on Brainstorm that are directly linked to official applications or maemo os. After 10 votes status changes to 'Under consideration' by whom? If i made brainstorm directly concerning maemo os is Nokia really taking my proposal under consideration after 10 votes?

Reason why i like to vote is that I see at least some feedback quickly and after while (couple of months?) end result Wontfix etc. or timetable for things to move on.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

You know how things are with advertising :D

Anyway I want to emphasize again that we should focus on :eek:very obvious:eek: features, things that everybody can notice and make day to day life easier.

Those are the things people notice most and make them feel happy about their device and bring a constant flow of ideas.
In the end it's not touch-integration that makes a great device/OS, it's the integration with the users and the needs they might have.

As for brainstorm vs bugzilla,
Brainstorm is obviously more user friendly while bugzilla should be more oriented towards "nokia, we want that!"

Analytical judgment has to be required from the users as there are things like:
(just a basic example)"Headset button input reader" that nokia will never EVER care of.
In their misconception hacker/business devices are not multimedia-cute devices so who bother and bring decent headset support?
The best thing (IF) they would ever do, in this particular case, would be a nice custom headset - not cheap of course - or at least one of their newer ones.

Right now I think there's a bit of a mixup between things we as a community should accomplish for having the most relevant features and nokia's responsibility, to keep the device bug-free, focus on the global aspects of the device (eg responsive menus and UI) and of course deep hardware-software integration for things like MMS, videocall, voicedialing.

I think separating the tasks better community | nokia would be another good selection criterion.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

We shouldn't move on as we don't have an input from enough users since they themselves don't know what would make using the N900 more comfortable.

I say even if they're (the brainstorms) not picked in a few months or so, let 'em rot, since maybe a (fresh) dev will someday find the request as being relevant for himself as well and make a nice surprise to a bunch of unsuspecting users :)

Let 'em rot but let 'em also be accessible;)

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Thanks Quim, that second point is very helpful.

Ok, so you're saying that the division between brainstorm on the community/user side is by complexity and UI, and on the Maemo/Nokia side, it's role. Maybe that's part of the problem.

What about an interface between bugzilla and brainstorm the same way there is between either of those and Talk? All it would have to be is a link, the same way we do now. Rather than closing bugs, they would be marked as "Suspended pending deliberation" and the interested parties would then take it to Brainstorm. When some (established) consensus and plan is sufficiently voted on in Brainstorm, it would be a reopened as a valid entry in bugzilla.

That would avoid things falling through the cracks or being duplicated because of the differences in who's paying attention to what, and why.

Edit: Sorry, the lab was calling.

One of the most important parts of that would be to combine the votes between brainstorm and bugzilla. And... i had another important thought but it's gone. :/

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Please, keep in mind that the bugtracker also tracks all bugs and enhancements for community software too. (At least thats what it should do).

The discussion split out of bugtracker for "new" stuff happens to brainstorm, so do major enhancements but minor should just have a thread in software and grow to brainstorm if realy needed.

The linking allready happens as long as Andre (or someone else) recognize the discussion threads ;).

I now mark threads in brainstorm outdated (maybe you have a better word?!) if nothing happens anymore but we should not remove them.

The prefix makes it visible in which state a proposal is atm. (no colors I found yet sorry kathy). Maybe it needs a legend somewhere to tell what is what... and if we use timedelay for something... how long it takes till outdated and so on.

[SUGGEST] Priority Queue Application List
 

I am looking in this forum and as i can see there are so many threads about new ideas and suggestions about new applications or patches that in the end we will be confused! So then I suggest to make an official Queue Application List with priorities such as Low, normal and high or with a value of % like 4% if we want to be more specific so developers or owners of N900 vote to a patch or update or new application for its creation.
Personally I believe this will help us.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

1 post merged from brainstorm "[SUGGEST] Priority Queue Application List"

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Brainstorm is FAST now after the server move. At least server speed will be left hopefully out of the discussion.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Excellent :D

I hope to see some more votes now considering we had almost 2000 online users.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

please keep the noise in this thread low as possible,
thanks Quim for the heads up.
As no serious posts dropped in since the move from community forum over here should it be moved back again?

BTT: What about to prevent normal users from starting threads in talk.brainstorm and make brainstorm start the threads itself with proper linking, including status update by itself in the thread's title?

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

That seems like the right way to do it. As with the rest of the forum integration, the questions are "who" and "when".

I've been observing (lots and lots of threads to sift through in here/there) and thinking about the brainstorm situation, and i think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people using it are just going to post their own pet brainstorm topic and then go on their merry way. I know this isn't going to be a popular suggestion, but i think that in order for brainstorm to be useful, some kind of quota and queue has to be established so that people will have to get behind and push so they can get their own time at the head of the line.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

That's the plan, in Reggie and Oskari backlogs.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Ok, talk about how Brainstorming is failing is scattered around here so I thought I'd see if we could discuss in this thread and reach some sort of consensus. Suffice to say I think I get where Quim is coming from but I'm still not sure it's a disaster and if it is, what we need to do to fix it.

So I'm going to construct a fictional scenario here to see if Quim and those thanking him can get the issues through my thick skull. The scenario will have nothing to do with Maemo so we can avoid getting caught up in some of the real proposals here. I will intentionally add solutions that may seem silly since we really get those. ;)

Proposal:

Randy's house is old and could use many improvements

Solution 1: Randy should replace all of his windows with new ones
Solution 2: Randy should better insulate his attic
Solution 3: Randy should replace his antique air conditioning system
Solution 4: Randy should abandon the house and get an apartment
Solution 5: Randy should accidentally drop a match and collect insurance after the damn thing burns to the ground
Solution 6: Randy should sell the house as-is and try his luck on the depressed housing market
Solution 7: Randy should take out a loan for life, hire an expert and let them have at it
Solution 8: Randy should only insulate critical areas of the attic AND replace over-exposed windows for now

See how the proposal is at a very high level and can be attacked in many ways?

Now, some of these solutions are mutually-exclusive based on type and scope... but most are mutually exclusive based on resources (time, funds, help, etc). Some do not relate directly to the proposal (4, 5, 6) at all but are in fact alternatives. I see these as issues facing current Brainstorms.

So here's what I suggest: let the proposal creator manage this. Give them the ability to deprecate solutions, even popular ones, if he/she feels there's a conflict of any sort. Let them mark alternatives as Inappropriate (for no action) OR change the nature of the original proposal IF he/she feels the solution provider has introduced something not originally considered but highly useful.

Let proposal creators take ownership. Let them have the ability to edit and/or combine solutions. Let them manage their portion of the process. Let them prune, weed, nurture, whatever it takes to move the process forward.

Granted, this could cause some ill will... but, so can inaction (which we have now). Ultimately, I'd like to see proposal creators collaborate with solution contributors and start shaping the "mess".

I'd also like to have those of us participating in moderation have some sort of offline dialog so we can get on the same page. Starting soon.

I'm just... brainstorming here though. I'm starting to think I'm at odds with the general idea here based on responses to recent comments so maybe I should just shut up and let everyone else sort it out...

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I think at the end it goes down to a very pragmatical reason: specific brainstorm proposals are easier to address just like specific bug reports are easier to address.

I just rated a proposal in Sandbox with a thumbs down just trying to avoid that it leaves Sandbox: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=20 I think this could be a policy and we should address the current proposals that are Under Consideration.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Ok... then we need to figure out the cleanup process...

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Well in the end it comes to specific solutions too, those that have the most votes.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Think about the workflow we have.

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...t_suggestions/ is in the top of the Hot list so I put it in my priorities. It turns out that "navigation" is the hottest feature from the long list, since the two most rated solutions are related to it.

Imagine that a third party application shows up in Ovi doing just that: turn by turn navigation with voice guidance. This is a solution that even doesn't show up there, even if it would be an obvious alternative solution for a brainstorm naved e.g. "Can't use the N900 as a GPS navigator". Let's imagine that I create that solution myself only to be able to move forward in the workflow. And then resolve the brainstorm as Implemented, choosing that solution I just created.

What happens with the 19 remaining solutions that have nothing to do with Navigation?

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I'm confused by that statement.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

I'm confused by that, too.

Look, all I've been trying to convey is that we're just picking one poison over another. The current system can't properly manage Brainstorms so there's huge potential for human error. No matter what, we are utterly dependent on people to do the right thing-- be they proposal creators, solution providers, moderators, whatever.

Again: I'm still looking for an answer as to what the workflow should actually be. I see a lot of complaints about how I had (mistakenly) thought it was... but no definitive description of how everyone thinks it should be.

I'm going to bow out of this and let everyone else solve it. I'll go along with whatever is decided because frankly, my head is spinning from the discussion.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Proposal:
It was in the context of keeping the brainstorms a little cleaner and organize the flow of ideas.
I see the tendency of people posting chunks of ideas in brainstorm. They have an idea, fail do develop it and simply drop it in brainstorm as a solution.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

As for me, I already raised comments against meta-brainstorms like portrait mode and Maps 1-2 months ago. Sorry if I didn't hit one of your proposals before, just being busy and then on holidays. The fact that we got a fast server for Brainstorm only 2 days ago also helped not finding extra time to spend waiting for pages to download.

If you notice I'm doing all this in my weekend, so still as part of pure hobby since I don't have much time to get into Brainstorm battles. But I think this is important and the drop was brought by the fact that 4 out of 10 hottest proposals at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/ were of this kind and more are quickly growing (Application Manager, Calendar...)

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

All this is less of a problem if solutions could be moved under other existing or new proposals. If moderators could do this then everything would be more flexible and no solutions/ratings would be lost because of the process. Now it's not possible or at least not evident, but being all database items it should be relatively simple to fix.

Bug opened: Can't move solutions to other brainstorm proposals

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

One more thing about the "chunks of ideas", maybe we should also limit the number of solutions a user can post?

There are some very prolific users that keep adding a new post for every word that comes in their mind, instead of editing an older post that is on the same wave length...

I haven't yet seen 2 ideas in one brainstorm form the same poster that are so different from each other that they can't be expressed in the same solution.
As for users that have more than one idea on how to implement a specific function, NO! Weigh their ups and downs and post the most relevant one - before coming to brainstorm, know exactly what you want.

My brainstorming about keeping brainstorm brainy is now complete ;)

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Meh, it happens quite often that when you are brainstorming you have more than one idea you want to share for others to evaluate. It happens to me quite often in real life that I have my preferred option, then I also comment than an alternative would be possible... then the rest are convinced about the alternative. :)

This is different than lazy users posting new solutions instead of editing their current ones to improve them, yes. Then again this is not much of a big problem since Brainstorm allows you to select more than one solution.

It only becomes a hassle when you have more than a dozen of solutions already and then a new one comes adding just too little. But not even that is a real hassle in focused brainstorms with only a few solutions listed.

Re: Brainstorm - Open Discussion
 

Yup but we also have long brainstorms that can simply get annoying when you see that the same individual keeps adding little bits in new posts.

There's always more ways to solving a problem but one way for one user should suffice and help brainstorms be a little more tidy.

Then there's another disturbing thing in nokia maps...
Keep navigation free and get $ via advertising????
Like how, show me pepsi commercials on half the screen when I'm driving? no thanks.
I know most users would like that but I don't see how that improves the service.
There should be rule from preventing requests like "can't we have this for free".