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eiffel's Avatar
Posts: 600 | Thanked: 742 times | Joined on Sep 2008 @ England
#221
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Or developers could just get to work with the Fremantle SDK, and users could be better helping them with feedback and ideas to improve their apps.

Really, you are investing too much time worrying in this thread.
You keep saying things like that, but it's really hard to develop for a device which may or may not have a physical keyboard, may or may not have a GPS, may or may not have a phone, has a screen or unknown dimensions, has an unknown amount of memory, has an unknown arrangement of hardware buttons, has some as-yet-undeciphered second type of keyboard input on one variant, may or may not have its apps distributable through Nokia's app store, may or may not be able to drive an external screen, might but probably won't have a capacitive screen, might but probably won't support multi-touch, may or may not support haptics beyond the simple "vibrate" that we know about, may or may not have a transflective screen, has unknown battery life, may or may not have a hardware stylus, may or may not fit in a jeans pocket, etc.

Success is not just a matter of developing against an SDK and hoping that the device will be well-suited to the app.

If Nokia actually wants to reap the benefit of the open source model, they need to be open themselves.

Someone once said that "there's not much community around S60, except for the community that Nokia pays to be there". That's also true of Maemo to some extent. Nokia is enlightened when it comes to subsidising conference attendances, funding a community debmaster, etc etc. But that's an expensive way to tap into open source when Nokia could reap huge benefits simply by being ... open!

Regards,
Roger
 

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GeneralAntilles's Avatar
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#222
Rather than becoming fixated on your perception of Nokia's level of openness, it'd probably behoove you to pay attention to the information that already out there and the answers to these points that have already been provided. For the sake of completeness, though, I'll address each of them with what we know.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
a physical keyboard
We can be certain that at least one of the devices in the next generation will have a keyboard. There's a reason they put on in the N810, and I don't see them taking it out.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not have a GPS
Considering that it looks like Nokia Maps will be bundled with Fremantle, I'd say this is a certainty.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not have a phone
Of all the potential features of the next device, this one is the least clear, but it's also one of the less relevant things to application developers. The bit of information about cellular connectivity that's relevant to developers (the data connectivity) was announced last year.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
has a screen or unknown dimensions
We have a part number for a Sony panel, you get the specs on it and you'll know for certain what the dimensions are. Really, though, the important information is known: the screen will be 800x480, and since that hasn't changed in 4 years, I'd say it's safe to assume that the dimensions wont, either.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
has an unknown amount of memory
Also hardly relevant to application developers. "A lot less than your average desktop" is plenty of information here. Whether it's 128MB or 256MB isn't going to make or break anybody's development plans.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
has an unknown arrangement of hardware buttons
This valid only to a certain extent.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
has some as-yet-undeciphered second type of keyboard input on one variant
This might be important if developers had to target only that varient, but as the software is expected to run on other devices, I think it's pretty safe to assume that this isn't a make-or-break proposition here.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not have its apps distributable through Nokia's app store
Is the question here whether it's going to require an Apple AppStore-style gateway for software distribution or whether commercial developers will have the option of a more heavily supported (and commercialized) distribution method?

If it's the former, well, that's obviously not the case. Developers will be able to distribute their software for Fremantle through Extras and the Application Manager just like they always have.

If it's the later, well, how in the world is that relevant to anybody but commercial developers (who already have access to this sort of information through their relationships with Nokia)?

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not be able to drive an external screen
There are several mentions of video-out in the code (composite), and since USB isn't going away, an external display adaptor is still an option (probably a more feasible one with a faster USB bus, too).

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
might but probably won't have a capacitive screen
Based on all of the information available, I think we can safely but this one to rest for the time being. The best argument against it are liqbase and Numpty Physics in the Fremantle Stars, well, that, and the (two) resistive panels listed in the kernel.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
might but probably won't support multi-touch
Same answer as above.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not support haptics beyond the simple "vibrate" that we know about
This hardly seems like a critical bit of information for application developers. Especially as something like this is likely handled at about the level of system sound notifications (i.e., very low level).

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not have a transflective screen
Based on the part numbers in the kernel, I'd say this is almost certain. I can't see Nokia backsliding on this feature anyway.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
has unknown battery life
This is an easy one. Idle battery life will be superior to OMAP2 hardware, while full-blast battery life will likely be slightly worse (since there are a lot more components involved). The battery size isn't likely to change by much. Yet again, though, this isn't really critical for application developers.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not have a hardware stylus
Based on the applications in the Fremantle Stars, and the resistive screens in the kernel, I'd say this rumor is vastly overblown.

Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
may or may not fit in a jeans pocket
I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that the formfactor hasn't varied excessively from previous models. But, again, I don't see how this is a critical bit of information for application developers.

Really, though, the beta SDK isn't even out yet. We're still on an alpha release that isn't really intended for application developers. Who's to say that a hardware announcement might not be coming with the beta release? Then the application developers will have all of the information they could possibly need to develop for the next tablet.
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GeneralAntilles's Avatar
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#223
Originally Posted by eiffel View Post
But that's an expensive way to tap into open source when Nokia could reap huge benefits simply by being ... open!
You may not realize it, but the Nokians who frequent this website get this. They get open source, and they understand what open means. Unfortunately big ships like Nokia don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to change direction like this (especially when most traditional business values go totally against it). They've made an amazing amount of progress since 2005.
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#224
@eiffel, I understand knowing the answers to all your questions will make your short term life as developer easier. But if we haven't disclosed them by now is because Nokia thinks that by following certain marketing strategy the devices with Maemo 5 will have a better impact and will sell better. Which ultimately is a goal shared by most developers interested in the Maemo platform: most of you want more users for your software.

Then again, can you name the projects you have in mind for Maemo 5 and why all these questions are critical? If you can't really start seriously before having those questions answered fair enough: do not waste your time. All these pre-releases are made for those willing to get started before a product launch.

Before that product launch you can try the SDK pre-releases or you can ignore them. The worst combination is not to ignore them and not to have fun with them, spending your energies in especulative threads like this and writing the especulative post number 225.
 

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#225
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
You may not realize it, but the Nokians who frequent this website get this. They get open source, and they understand what open means. Unfortunately big ships like Nokia don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to change direction like this (especially when most traditional business values go totally against it). They've made an amazing amount of progress since 2005.
It's not even that. But this thread is getting too long and too off the original topic, therefore:

Open source vs confidential products
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...d.php?p=280756
 

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#226
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
@eiffel, I understand knowing the answers to all your questions will make your short term life as developer easier.
Software development is hard, and every developer wants their life to be easier :-)

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
can you name the projects you have in mind for Maemo 5 and why all these questions are critical?
I would like to develop something really cool, based on the intersection of my interests and the unique capabilities of the device. But I'm not prepared to put in hundreds of hours work developing for a device that may be surprisingly different from what I'm expecting.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Before that product launch you can try the SDK pre-releases or you can ignore them. The worst combination is not to ignore them and not to have fun with them...
You are right of course. I'll try not to vent my frustration so often. When the device is announced, I'll decide whether it's worth my time developing for.

@Ryan: thanks for your point-by-point comments.

Regards,
Roger
 

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#227
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Full screen finger friendly keyboard is the one and only virtual keyboard we are developing.
Is handwriting still there btw?

Last edited by lma; 2009-04-24 at 09:04.
 
daperl's Avatar
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#228
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Is handwriting still there btw?
It better not be.
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Jaffa's Avatar
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#229
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Is handwriting still there btw?
I know you're probably asking it as a question only tangentially related but Quim did say "only virtual keyboard".

Originally Posted by daperl View Post
It better not be.
Eh? Wouldn't you love for the handwriting still to be present? It'd 100% confirm the continuation of the stylus (I don't think anyone's mad enough to try HWR with fingers)
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#230
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Eh? Wouldn't you love for the handwriting still to be present? It'd 100% confirm the continuation of the stylus (I don't think anyone's mad enough to try HWR with fingers)
No, I wouldn't love to see handwriting still present. And if it was, it wouldn't confirm anything that isn't already highly probable. If you said that handwriting in the official release of Maemo 5 was just a 100% recompile of the Maemo 4 handwriting HIM plugin, that might be something I could love.
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