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lowtek is offline lowtek
2010-03-11 , 09:53
Posts: 28 | Thanked: 7 times | Joined on Mar 2010
#371
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Those two concepts do not stand on equal footing.

The former is codified in law based originally on sound, good intentions. Sadly, many people confuse bad implementations with the core concept and use their naivete to rationalize improper responses.

The latter is pure subjective opinion based on an individual's income, lifestyle and comfort zone.
i was fighting lack of sleep when i wrote what you're referring to haha. and i agree, people do confuse bad implementations with the core concept. an example would be communism.

however, my argument is not that copyright is bad, instead, its that copyright has gotten out of hand in regard to what should be allowed to be copyrighted, for how long and fair use.

the entertainment industries want a more and more restricted way of providing content, to the point of you having no control of how the content you purchase is delivered/utilized. and they want this control to be indefinite. they don't care about our view of things, they're a business and business is about money. this is why a good concept like copyright is being abused.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
The latter is pure subjective opinion based on an individual's income, lifestyle and comfort zone.
perhaps i used a term that is too in-general. when i say we pay too much for things i mean that we are ridiculously over charged. in the context of online piracy, should you pay $20 for a DVD that costs pennies to be mass-produced or download the "DVD" for free? its a moral and philosophical dilemma involving the current state of our civilization.

while it might sound silly saying this about a DVD or music or software, it doesn't sound silly at all when you realize this problem also applies to food, health care, education.

copyright is just another thing they abuse to get as much money as they can out of you.

and more to think about, when does copyright become censorship?

the following quote is funny but very true

Capitalism is a system based upon monetary inequality. Capitalism is legal-theft. Wealth is stolen from idiots via stupid trade. Monetary inequality is essential. Rich people are only rich because they take a bigger share of wealth. Rich people live affluent lives because they exploit masses of fools. Customers are overcharged and employees are underpaid. Idiocy and capitalism are inextricably interlinked. The urge to be richer than other people plunders our intellectual wealth. Enslavement of unintelligent workers is a fundamental aspect of capitalism.
i'm not suggesting that we abolish capitalism. should we one day figure out how best to live without it (like riding a bike without training wheels, aka the rich, to drag us down), the world will obviously benefit greatly, until then, we should recognize capitalism's problems and compensate for them.

if content was available at very close to the costs needed to originally produce it and ridiculous controls weren't placed on that content, piracy would be, or close to, non existent.
Last edited by lowtek; 2010-03-11 at 10:05.
 
jakiman is offline jakiman
2010-03-11 , 23:58
Posts: 1,427 | Thanked: 2,077 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Sydney
#372
Originally Posted by smoku View Post
I just found commercial N900 software being distributed illegally.

This really makes me doubt whether I should continue with my N900 app.
You are basically saying everyone here may or will download your app illegally instead of paying. Nice one.

What popular phone/gaming/desktop platform other than Sony PS3 that doesn't have piracy???
iPhone? Symbian? Windows Mobile? I see them as being much worse than N900 for piracy.

You can create all the protection/drm etc you want, it will get cracked "if" what you produce is "good enough".
If it is a bad piece of software, even if it's distributed freely, no one will download it and use it. Actually, noone will even bother to crack it.

So the main point you should worry is whether your software is "good enough" that people are willing to support you and pay for. You will always end up with people who try to get it for free if you make an useful app. But that also means you will be earning money from those who like to support you. So all in all, application first has to be good.

Microsoft Windows might be one of the most pirated software in the world on the worst platform for piracy = PC. But they are still damn rich aren't they?
Last edited by jakiman; 2010-03-12 at 07:49.
 
lowtek is offline lowtek
2010-03-12 , 05:28
Posts: 28 | Thanked: 7 times | Joined on Mar 2010
#373
Originally Posted by Flandry View Post
But, that's not the policy here, and it has not happened. At some point the thread may be locked just because it has degenerated into nothing but insults, but it will not as long as it remains a free exchange of ideas and stays clear of the few rules we have here..
yes, i love this forum...just had bad experiences in others....try bringing up a topic referring to anything even remotely near *whispers* Nintendo 64 emulation, and the most bored, living in their basement on their computer, life-less members of a forum descend like wolves to tell you how stupid you are, no matter what you say. i haven't experienced that here at maemo.org yet, thankfully.

Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Take the multi-touch for example... I do not think anyone should be able to hold a patent on simply "multi-touch".
i agree completely, apple is ridiculous. Should wearing two gloves instead of one be patented?

apple didn't invent multi-touch, they were simply the first to implement it. if apple can patent multi-touch, IBM should patent computing in-general and sue everybody. hell, i'm going to go out and patent reality and get astronomically rich.

honestly, i wish there were a simple answer to the question in the title of this thread. i think there is wrongdoing at both ends of the spectrum.

i just suggest if you make great software for any of the nokia tablets for example, make it a reasonable price (less than $50 unless its something related to development or is a client that provides an online service, which then have different levels of subscription). consider making older versions free, consider a free basic version, etc.

if you make something REALLY Good, but make it REALLY crippled functionally or with overbearing copy protections and give it a ridiculous price, (you probably made the iphone) and you are asking for piracy.
Last edited by lowtek; 2010-03-12 at 05:35.
 
nman is offline nman
2011-02-18 , 02:45
Posts: 124 | Thanked: 105 times | Joined on Jul 2010
#374
Debate continuing from wifi driver thread:

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Way to pick semantics. My point was that the creator gets to offer his work for the price of their choosing. By pirating, you remove that right by paying nothing.
No, the creator still has a right to ask a price of their choosing. I can choose not to pay it however.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post


I'd bet that book stores and the author or the work would say otherwise. In fact, Google had just this issue with scanning books, was taken to court over it, and would have lost (which is why they settled for a huge fine out of court). Legally, it is stealing.
Perhaps you're unaware, but there are places called libraries that have books for free, where they can be read, and the author doesn't get a dime. If I borrow a book or a CD from a friend then that is ok, while the creator still doesn't get paid.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

And that's where you're wrong. If you were right, hookers would be free. They're not. They're paid for their work, since they technically sell no tangible product outside of "beauty or performance".
That doesn't make any sense. Hookers provide a (valuable :P) service. They have to provide it separately and uniquely to every john, so they get paid for every instance. The pleasure a hooker provides can't be copied from one person to others. (Unless they like to watch:P) Software, on the other hand, can be.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post
Value can be influenced by supply and demand, but neither is the predictor or creator of value. Value is place by the creator of a good, and the market reacts accordingly. If the value is too low, there's a run on the supply until demand is met or supply is exhausted, which then drives up the value in resale. If the value is to high, pent up demand exists and a market for a competitor is formed.

At no point does supply and demand itself set the value. Nor at any time does those in the demand side get to choose the value of the supply. Their choice is weather or not to purchase from the supply for the cost set by the one offering the good. Simply taking the good without paying any cost for an item that has a value set on it is called theft.
So by that rationale I can put up my 1980 Pinto for sale for $1M, and then I have a $1M-worth Pinto? Try going into a bank to get a loan secured by your car or house. I'm pretty sure they won't be going by the value that *you* put on those things.

The bottom line is that I'm not taking a good. Theft requires a change of possession/location/control of a good, and there is none in piracy. It's like me owning a vase, a teapot, and bowl. I can put those objects in my house wherever I want and however I want. I also own my computer, I own it's hard disk, and all those millions of ferromagnetic particles that it uses to store data, I own those too. And thus I can arrange them in whatever way I want. Saying that I can't arrange my hard disk however I want is exactly like you coming over and saying I can't put my teapot on a shelf between the vase and bowl, because you had those items arranged that same way first.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

And how exactly do artists eat? If people don't pay for beauty or work as you stated above, how would artists make a living? How would programmers making "customized applications" make money? After making sad application, it's intangible and there for free, isn't it? Your whole premise is contradicted by your own statement here, since you're talking about someone paying for a custom application, or providing support, which are both forms of work.
It's up to them to figure a way to eat. What I provided are some examples. I'm not contradicting anything. It's like the lawn mowing example I used earlier. If someone does work for you out of the blue they have no right to be paid, even if you find it useful. If you agree prior to starting the work that there will be payment, then that's how they eat.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

Maybe it's not "my philosophy" that need questioning here, but yours. You just detailed two instances of where someone should be paid for their work. Why is it ok to pay for work sometimes, and not at others? How do you decide which work is valid and should be paid for and which isn't? It's clearly not the tangibility of the goods (as you've already stated), since there is nothing tangible when it comes to support or programs (no matter how custom they are).
Work that should be paid is work that was agreed to be paid for. It is wise to obtain this agreement before the work is started. If someone creates a work without such agreement, they have to assume the risk that nobody will want to pay for it.

Originally Posted by woody14619 View Post

So by your definition, murder isn't wrong as long as you murder people that you think it's ok to kill, and that can't afford lawyers (or at least who's surviving relatives can't afford them). Nice morals and legal system you have there. Remind me to never visit you.
?? Quite the jump there, not sure how you did that one.
 
TiagoTiago is offline TiagoTiago
2011-02-18 , 04:06
Posts: 1,522 | Thanked: 392 times | Joined on Jul 2010 @ São Paulo, Brazil
#375
Regarding the claims of validity of clickwrap EULAs and similar "agreements"; it is relativelly easy to hack the installer on disk, or the web page as displayed by your browser, or the contents of RAM or video memory while the "agreement" is being displayed, and change the terms of the agreement or replace the text on the "I Agree" button by somthing like "I Do Not Agree"; they can never prove you really signed the same contract they originally wrote or that you signed saying you agree instead of saying you don't or somthing else.
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ysss is offline ysss
2011-02-18 , 10:57
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#376
Regardless of the logical excuses or legal reasonings employed to avoid paying for software license/copy, i've found that those who sidestep paying for said digital goods are mostly those who cannot afford to pay for said software.

They don't do it purely out of principles.

This begs the question, whether the logic came before (principle) or after (excuse) the action? The human mind is known to be very very good to do the latter (rationalization).
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wizbowes is offline wizbowes
2011-02-18 , 11:12
Posts: 127 | Thanked: 54 times | Joined on Nov 2009
#377
Originally Posted by nman View Post
Perhaps you're unaware, but there are places called libraries that have books for free, where they can be read, and the author doesn't get a dime.
Perhaps you are the one who is unaware. Authors do get paid for people reading their works in libraries in many countries (Canada, the United Kingdom, all the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand) - it's called Public Lending Rights and it's source of incoming for the author long after the book is out of print.

You can read about it on the internets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right
 
IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-18 , 11:19
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#378
I'm probably gonna get blasted after my comment but here goes...lol.
I fully support piracy. I encourage it actually. I trully feel bad for the lone developper trying to make his living out of it but I do not support the monetary system. No software/application/program should ever be sold and/or bought. After all, you create these in order to help/assist/make life easier for other people no? So to me doesn't make sense to charge. I'm mostly talking about huge corporations here.
Originally Posted by lowtek View Post
in the context of online piracy, should you pay $20 for a DVD that costs pennies to be mass-produced or download the "DVD" for free? its a moral and philosophical dilemma involving the current state of our civilization.
This to me does not make any sense at all. If you charged me pennies for a dvd then fine, I would accept it, but 20$ is illogical. All because of the monetary system (aka our civilization).
A true painter would paint from the heart.
A true musician would create music for the fun of it.
A true developper would code out of passion.
If the artist really wanted to share his creation, he wouldn't charge for it. Money is not a motivator, and real talent WILL get recognized no matter the circustances.
Now don't get me wrong and think I probably steal everything I can because that is not the case. Whenever I actually do recognized real talent, I will donate some of my own money as an act of respect because respect must be paid where it is due. I have donated to several members in this community alone. But we, as human beings, need to realise the horrors of the Monetary System and wake up to see the damage it has caused us.
 
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ysss is offline ysss
2011-02-18 , 12:04
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#379
@IsaacDFP: What if everyone thinks like you? Don't you think that will SEVERELY limit the kind of apps/games that are produced?
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wizbowes is offline wizbowes
2011-02-18 , 12:08
Posts: 127 | Thanked: 54 times | Joined on Nov 2009
#380
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
A true painter would paint from the heart.
A true musician would create music for the fun of it.
A true developper would code out of passion.
you were right.

<blast>

And a hospital cleaner cleans hospital toilets because they love scrapping bloody crap of toilets? And a factory line worker works on a production line because they just love fitting two cables and four screws into 400 phones a day? And a bus driver loves it because he just loves to driving buses all day? And an abattoir worker kills pigs all day because he just loves killing pigs?

All your examples are bunk and are merely examples of where a passion can become a profession. The majority of people do stuff they don't really enjoy because somebody has to do it and the incentive to get them to do it is to pay them with cash which they can buy services elsewhere.

</blast>
 
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