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2010-04-10
, 13:20
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#22
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[QUOTE=arne.anka;604105]on what legal grounds?
reverse engineering, if following certain rules, is fully legal.
nokia's policy in the question of maemo6/meego has, imo, a lot of people made distrustful of nokia's intentions to protect customers' investments.
i paid a lot of money for a device i don't want to fall in the "no fixes/updates for crucial parts" trap with, as i have seen happen to other hardware (fully) supported by closed drivers only (have a look at amd/ati's policy against their customers who do not buy a new graphics adaptor every few months).
Any component that is closed is usually copywrited for that very reason so to strip down and spill out the full contents of any device under those conditions IS illegal so the way forward would be to work with the manufacturer and if enough people complain i am sure they will do the right thing, incidently why is the Maemo org here ? ok as you say it cuts costs from the engineering software side for Nokia but i very much doubt they will fall into the trap of not updating , watch and you will see. far too many people are now watching just what will happen with the N900.
I have done my fair shair of moaning and griping on here so now i take the silent approach and wait and see then act !.
reverse engineering, if following certain rules, is fully legal.
nokia's policy in the question of maemo6/meego has, imo, a lot of people made distrustful of nokia's intentions to protect customers' investments.
i paid a lot of money for a device i don't want to fall in the "no fixes/updates for crucial parts" trap with, as i have seen happen to other hardware (fully) supported by closed drivers only (have a look at amd/ati's policy against their customers who do not buy a new graphics adaptor every few months).
Any component that is closed is usually copywrited for that very reason so to strip down and spill out the full contents of any device under those conditions IS illegal so the way forward would be to work with the manufacturer and if enough people complain i am sure they will do the right thing, incidently why is the Maemo org here ? ok as you say it cuts costs from the engineering software side for Nokia but i very much doubt they will fall into the trap of not updating , watch and you will see. far too many people are now watching just what will happen with the N900.
I have done my fair shair of moaning and griping on here so now i take the silent approach and wait and see then act !.
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2010-04-10
, 14:24
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Joined on Jan 2010
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#23
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The problem is, as arne.anka pointed out that all the device drivers and protocols should be open and documented, IIRC mer requires closed parts from maemo to charge battery, etc, anyway it does not have accelerated graphics, nor there is an open app to use it as a phone.
There is already a full middleware that take cares of phone/device management (www.freesmartphone.org) and much more.
Actually it full supports the OpenMoko Freerunner (emh.. it's the really first open phone/mobile computer in the world), and there is working progress to support palm tre, htc, and other phones.
But here we have ony few guys working, some one external is trying to add support for the N900, but this is a real hard work without specifications.
While on the phone part I'm quite sure that ofono will support the N900 modem (with the implicit opening of specification), I have some doubt on the "device" part.
Having specifications opened we'll have a full FSO working on the n900 in a couple of months, and for sure a lot of peoples from this community will join the FSO/SHR community that are hard trying to create a real open phone/device stack and relative consumer applications.
Anyway an ofono/fsodeviced hibrid solution is possible too (we are working on a project based on that for the freeruner), so again the priority is to open the device related parts.
Regards
Niko
There is already a full middleware that take cares of phone/device management (www.freesmartphone.org) and much more.
Actually it full supports the OpenMoko Freerunner (emh.. it's the really first open phone/mobile computer in the world), and there is working progress to support palm tre, htc, and other phones.
But here we have ony few guys working, some one external is trying to add support for the N900, but this is a real hard work without specifications.
While on the phone part I'm quite sure that ofono will support the N900 modem (with the implicit opening of specification), I have some doubt on the "device" part.
Having specifications opened we'll have a full FSO working on the n900 in a couple of months, and for sure a lot of peoples from this community will join the FSO/SHR community that are hard trying to create a real open phone/device stack and relative consumer applications.
Anyway an ofono/fsodeviced hibrid solution is possible too (we are working on a project based on that for the freeruner), so again the priority is to open the device related parts.
Regards
Niko
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2010-04-10
, 19:05
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#24
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Originally Posted by nicola.mfb
The problem is, as arne.anka pointed out that all the device drivers and protocols should be open and documented, IIRC mer requires closed parts from maemo to charge battery, etc, anyway it does not have accelerated graphics, nor there is an open app to use it as a phone.
There is already a full middleware that take cares of phone/device management (www.freesmartphone.org) and much more.
Actually it full supports the OpenMoko Freerunner (emh.. it's the really first open phone/mobile computer in the world), and there is working progress to support palm tre, htc, and other phones.
But here we have ony few guys working, some one external is trying to add support for the N900, but this is a real hard work without specifications.
While on the phone part I'm quite sure that ofono will support the N900 modem (with the implicit opening of specification), I have some doubt on the "device" part.
Having specifications opened we'll have a full FSO working on the n900 in a couple of months, and for sure a lot of peoples from this community will join the FSO/SHR community that are hard trying to create a real open phone/device stack and relative consumer applications.
Anyway an ofono/fsodeviced hibrid solution is possible too (we are working on a project based on that for the freeruner), so again the priority is to open the device related parts.
Regards
Niko
I will make a suggestion here which takes me back a few years to say the least ha, when the next update does arrive from Nokia then it needs to be grabbed and stored in full because surely it will include ALL drivers inparticularly the ones for the closed components in the N900 and there you will have full source of all drivers. I will not go into the full situation here but we as a team of 6 engineers hacking the videocrypt system 1 used by BSKYB many years ago we also had a situation with 3 of 4 ic's that were closed and by grabbing everything they sent to the decoders ( in particular the shutting down or flagging ) we were then able to completely reverse engineer every component needed to crack the system, ok thats not a legal way forward but given that Maemo is supposed to be open in its entirety Nokia should and can no way leave the N900 on the shelve especially when they realise its future in the mobile phone market.
There are many ways indeed to make life a lot easier in the future development if Nokia play ball. If they dont i am sure there are many ways to force there hand here.
The only reason i am saying this is simply because £500 is a hell of a lot of money to spend on a mobile phone/computer for then Nokia to abandon its future as i am sure everyone would agree here. I dont know the facts about how the Maemo org was started up so i am a bit in the dark here but if its in anyway in cooperation with Nokia then it should be true to say that Nokia would give all the help and support needed to progress further IF it decides its pulling out of future development of the N900 ( and i dont think for one moment they are ).
The thing i really dont understand is why Nokia is telling people nothing at all publicly about the N900's future, its future updates etc etc.
Thanks indeed for your somewhat informing comments.
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2010-04-10
, 19:44
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@ Kansas City, Missouri, USA
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#25
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
This is simply not true.
IThe thing i really dont understand is why Nokia is telling people nothing at all publicly about the N900's future, its future updates etc etc.
What they have not said that everyone wants to hear is that MeeGo be available for the N900 as a finished, end-user-ready OTA update. They have said there might be a user-ready version of MeeGo for the N900 available at some point, that is as yet undecided so they have not committed to it. However, if there ever is a user-ready MeeGo for the N900, it will no doubt have to be downloaded and manually installed ('flashed' on your device, wiping out all installed software, etc). The differences between Maemo and MeeGo OS will be too large to allow a simple OTA upgrade from Maemo 5 to MeeGo.
But they have officially stated many times that the N900 will not be forgotten. They have said the N900 will be the starting point for MeeGo development on ARM and have backed that up by already releasing a basic developer's build of MeeGo for the N900 with a more complete build to come soon.
They have released 3 Maemo/N900 updates and a major 1.2 update is coming very soon. At least one more update, 1.3, is known to be in the works. 1.2 is a significant upgrade to Maemo 5 adding some nice features, including adding critical Qt 4.6 compatibility which ensures most (if not all) software written in the future for MeeGo will run on N900s still using Maemo 5.
All this tells me that, as promised, the N900 is not forgotten and that they fully intend to ensure the N900 will have a long, useful life with or without an upgrade to MeeGo. And they have outlined there plans about as completely as they can at this point.
So - what's the problem?
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2010-04-10
, 22:34
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#26
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Originally Posted by Crashdamage
It appears to me you do not read what people are currently saying about Nokia and the N900, you say NOKIA said this and said that but where ? can you point me and everyone else in that direction please because it will put a hell of a lot of peoples mind at rest for sure !.
This is simply not true.
What they have not said that everyone wants to hear is that MeeGo be available for the N900 as a finished, end-user-ready OTA update. They have said there might be a user-ready version of MeeGo for the N900 available at some point, that is as yet undecided so they have not committed to it. However, if there ever is a user-ready MeeGo for the N900, it will no doubt have to be downloaded and manually installed ('flashed' on your device, wiping out all installed software, etc). The differences between Maemo and MeeGo OS will be too large to allow a simple OTA upgrade from Maemo 5 to MeeGo.
But they have officially stated many times that the N900 will not be forgotten. They have said the N900 will be the starting point for MeeGo development on ARM and have backed that up by already releasing a basic developer's build of MeeGo for the N900 with a more complete build to come soon.
They have released 3 Maemo/N900 updates and a major 1.2 update is coming very soon. At least one more update, 1.3, is known to be in the works. 1.2 is a significant upgrade to Maemo 5 adding some nice features, including adding critical Qt 4.6 compatibility which ensures most (if not all) software written in the future for MeeGo will run on N900s still using Maemo 5.
All this tells me that, as promised, the N900 is not forgotten and that they fully intend to ensure the N900 will have a long, useful life with or without an upgrade to MeeGo. And they have outlined there plans about as completely as they can at this point.
So - what's the problem?
Read the post on this very topic from arne.anka , firstly: maemo _is_ dead. with meego nokia will hardly spend any money developing maemo further.
The whole point of this topic was to find out if the N900 IS capable as any computer, is to have ANY operating system installed, this if IS possible makes the N900 a lifetime mobile/computer which can be upgraded as any computer can But obviously many things will be outdated such as proc speed video sat nav and camera etc etc, but right now the BIG problem is many many people are now thinking the N900 is dead.
I personally think as you have stated the N900 will serve us for a very long time with many many possibilities and updates, when people know this then many derogative and senseless threads on here will simply dissapear ha.
Many thanks for your thoughts very much appreciated !.
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2010-04-11
, 02:38
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@ Kansas City, Missouri, USA
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#27
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
The 'Maemo is dead - N900 is forgotten' thing has been discussed endlessly here and elsewhere. Search the forum or try here:
you say NOKIA said this and said that but where ? can you point me and everyone else in that direction
http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_re...or_my_N900_.3F
It should answer most of your questions.
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2010-04-11
, 03:00
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#28
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Originally Posted by Crashdamage
Thanks for that valuable link which i suggest EVERY N900 owner reads !!!!
The 'Maemo is dead - N900 is forgotten' thing has been discussed endlessly here and elsewhere. Search the forum or try here:
http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_re...or_my_N900_.3F
It should answer most of your questions.
It is now clear that MeeGo WILL be developed for the N900 so as this topic asks " Is the N900 completely re-programmable" means that even if Maemo IS coming to a dead end, all N900 owners can be assured of their device not coming to a dead end !.
I dont want to start up a new thread regarding this subject but it would be wonderful news to absolutely confirm that the N900 will go on to be everything and more that end user expected, timing of course will be the question but you know the old saying ... good things come to those who wait !.
Many many thanks indeed for your input on this topic and please feel free to add anything you wish.
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2010-04-11
, 09:58
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#29
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
afaiu, the OP did _not_ ask for maemo/meego!
It is now clear that MeeGo WILL be developed for the N900 so as this topic asks " Is the N900 completely re-programmable" means that even if Maemo IS coming to a dead end, all N900 owners can be assured of their device not coming to a dead end !.
neither did i, but both did we speak about the possibility of entirely different operating systems on the n900 -- which in my case turns out to be the simple, though almost consequently ignored question about the OPENESS of the HARDWARE (and the OP's question boils down to the same question, after all).
please take a minute before answering!
the question here is NOT maemo/meego but openess of the device to deploy other OS.
edit:
just realized, that_you_ are the OP ;-) nevertheless, my point holds true.
Last edited by arne.anka; 2010-04-11 at 11:38.
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2010-04-11
, 11:24
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#30
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Basically: being Meego developed also for N900, and being Meego fully open source, is it possible to get all the drivers' source and adapt them to whatever OS you want on your N900? (I would say Symbian to begin with a open source OS, maybe in dual boot)
If I understood this well..
(ps. can drivers still be closed source even if the whole Meego is open? I assume they can, looking at linux & ati/nvidia..? hmm, probably I know the answer to my question.. nothing assured :P)
Last edited by thecursedfly; 2010-04-11 at 11:29.
If I understood this well..
(ps. can drivers still be closed source even if the whole Meego is open? I assume they can, looking at linux & ati/nvidia..? hmm, probably I know the answer to my question.. nothing assured :P)
Last edited by thecursedfly; 2010-04-11 at 11:29.
secondly: i repeat, i don't care for maemo, i care for the drivers -- the n900 will run without maemo every day, but not without drivers for all of the hardware.
even if nokia did not abandon maemo in favour of meego, that does not mean, they will provide newer drivers for newer kernels in future.
seeing how hard it was for nokia to commit to the very recent n900 when meego came into the game, i have little trust in nokia giving the n900 noteworthy attention after >12month after the release.
thus, w/o open drivers we are stuck with old kernels and unfixed bugs.